Comments on The Dougout: Was Hawaii Queen Liliuokalani Really Like Martin L...

Let me preface my remarks by emphasizing my basic ...

2009-08-27T20:53:46.874-05:00

Let me preface my remarks by emphasizing my basic agreement with your very deep [and evident] antipathy towards the self-anointed paladins of the "Hawai'i Sovereignty" movement, and for the pernicious racial politics of the "Akaka Bill." I share, too, your disgust with the blatant partisan pandering and butchery of history evident in Clinton's 1993 "Apology Resolution."

Having said that, I truly wish that opponents of the ethnicity-driven "sovereignty movement" [and I would count myself as just such an opponent] did not feel the need to indulge in ill-mannered slander against Hawai'i's last sovereign. It is enough to note that the Kingdom of Hawai'i itself was never an ethnicity-based polity, and that the U.S. played no direct role in the overthrow of the Queen.

If we base our arguments on these basic precepts, WHY then is it necessary to offer apologetics for the Queen's overthrow, if it was not a U.S. action? If the intention is to divorce U.S. policy from the self-serving actions of a small cabal, why do we then need to defend the actions of said cabal?

It is a common refrain among the sovereignty activists [and hacks like Steve Kinzer, whom you briefly reference] that the U.S. forces its views, values and political model on other nations. Articles such as this don't defuse such rhetoric - they only inflame it.

Hawai'i has done well, first as a U.S. Territory [in which Hawai'ians recovered the electoral rights they lost under the antidemocratic "republic"] and subsequently as a State. I would be the first to admit this, and even to celebrate it. Yet this does not stop me from having a very deep and sincere fascination, and fondness, for Hawai'i's royal past.

Queen Lili'uokalani was a human being with her fair share of personal flaws, but her sincere love for Hawai'i has never been doubted - nor has the passing of a century dimmed the love which Hawai'ians continue to have for her. Reverting to anti-monarchy diatribe is not a useful method for refuting the historical and political fallacies of the "sovereignty movement."

--- John K.

These ad hominems from anonymous commenters are so...

2009-04-22T12:11:00.000-05:00

These ad hominems from anonymous commenters are so convincing, NOT.

Hey now, Ken Conklin is not the person to cite whe...

2009-04-22T00:22:00.000-05:00

Hey now, Ken Conklin is not the person to cite when talking about "fair and unbiased" works; his "facts" can't even stand up to an actual academic piece. He and his cronies have taken over the wiki pages on these important topics, which require critical thought, not biased views of crazy people. Don't believe the hype.
It is also hyper offensive to see a typical white man, who has received a typical white-colorblind education to (badly) attempt to make blatant statements about radical people of color, and who's actions merit more respect. It funny when members of the offending group tries to white-wash a history and can't even get the facts straight about the offenses that HIS government engaged in.
Your analysis sucks. sorry.

Anonymous, you're welcome. Be sure to check out Ke...

2009-02-20T11:33:00.000-06:00

Anonymous, you're welcome. Be sure to check out Ken Conklin's website. It is full of such useful articles and information.

Thanks for posting. Even now, two years after the...

2009-02-19T22:32:00.000-06:00

Thanks for posting. Even now, two years after the post date, it's good to find a rebuttal of the typical revisionist slant. I've made a copy so that I can review it before the family reunions with my sovereignty inclined 'ohana.

Dole and his men are terrorists at best and do not...

2008-07-15T22:19:00.000-05:00

Dole and his men are terrorists at best and do not deserve the honor of being called revolutionaries.
And greed did not produce technology and all the modern breakthroughs that makes present life possible. Identify a product of Dole's greed that I should be thankful for? If not for Dole, we would not be having this conversation for Liliuokalani would had been just another queen and not the last monarchial figure that represents the old days when Hawaii was independent.
And do not mix-up terrorists like Dole with great scientists who loved science and worked for the greater good of humanity. Science is not driven by greed, but rather by and interest for knowledge. They get high compensation for they are skilled workers whose breakthroughs are of high value, since they benefit humanity. Yes, some may be driven by the greed for money, but unlike Dole, these men will claim what is theirs and not carryout terrorist acts against another nation.
And yes, I have FULL RIGHT to what I enjoy here at UH for I pay for it. Do you think that these services are free? What any European, Asian, American, Hawaiian or any other country's byproduct is offered at a price and once I buy it, I have FULL RIGHT to it, for I have compensated the services of the producer.
And STOP trying to take the blame off the US for taking this land. I do not know if you are aware of the Bayonet Constiution, but if you really know history, you should know of US interests of Pearl Harbor. The US is as guilty as Dole for illegally annexing Hawaii and not returning it, even when they had the chance after World War 2, when the Trust Territories of the Pacific were supposed to be given a chance to choose their political direction, teh US failed to fulfill their obligation to the UN.
And I will tell you, one more time, that I created my own way of thinking. Cause to tell you the truth, I have not even taken a course here at UH that discusses Hawaii's history. I researched all these infromation that I am discussing with you. You however, should come to UH and hear the other side of the story.
And stop voicing you opinion about Inouye or Clinton and stick to facts. Interpret facts for that is how debates and discussions are to be carried out and not just based on your opinion.

Anonymous Guy, I'll leave aside your gross ignoran...

2008-07-15T09:51:00.000-05:00

Anonymous Guy, I'll leave aside your gross ignorance of what historians actually do as it has nothing to do with the post.

I'll just note, Mr. Anonymous Critical Thinker, there is no such thing as a racial interest. That you're a militant collectivist shouldn't be surprising. It is the programming you have received throughout your education.

Liliuokalani was no more a "great leader" than her brother. She was filled with hubris and paid the price. The Revolutionaries of 1893 no more needed help from the U.S. than they did in 1887.

As for the white man's "greed," it is the capitalist system of Western Civilization that created the wealth you enjoy at UH. People who think they have a "right" to the products of modern science, technology, and industry, but also attack their causes are fundamentally dishonest. Anyone who wants effects without causes is not a "critical thinker." When the first missionaries arrived in Hawaii they brought Western trained doctors. The alii did their best to keep one of these doctors close at hand. Knowledge is the source of wealth. It is the knowledge of Western science that makes the Queen's Medical Centernamed after Emma) possible.

As for Clinton's apology, he is an ignorant buffoon. And Akaka and Inouye lied about their intentions.

No jones, what you should do, is be realistic and ...

2008-07-15T01:45:00.000-05:00

No jones, what you should do, is be realistic and expect racism towards you, when your words express racism. Do you really expect that you can verbally attack Hawaii's last queen and pass through without a fight? For all her faults, she was a leader and must be revered as one. You say she sought her people (the Hawaiians) interest, but that is her job, to preserve and promote the Hawaiian race for she is the Hawaiian Queen.
The only reason why Hawaii was annexed and this conversation exists, is due to the greed of white businessmen like Dole, who wanted to continue and grow richer of Hawaiian lands and off the labor of many ethnic groups from all over the world in the sugar plantation. And so when we look at it, whether or not Liliuokalani was non-violent or not, she was a great leader, who sought the best for her people. And did you know that upon her death, she used her wealth to assist with hospital patients, which led to the creation of the Liliuokalani Medical Health Center? Just FYI, and jones, you should come to UH, it will be good for you.
And dont think that I am hasty and not a critical thinker, I am an economics and political science major and am more than capable to thinking and analyzing facts, and am very aware of biases and its reflection on every kind of work, for it is what we as social scientists are taught to do. I dont know about historians, but I heard that they are more documenter and not critical thinkers or analyzers. I apologize for not liking you, but your blog is too biased and negative that I will forever judge you on it. And I hope you do come to UH, and really see who was the victim in this particular part in history, most of the World and even the US Government as expressed by Clinton believes it was Hawaii, you on the other hand seem to think of the victims as the whites whose vast wealth we can see today, but again, your a historian and only document what you are told. I guess I cant really blame you, since its your nature.

So I should believe what the anonymous guy says, o...

2008-07-14T22:01:00.000-05:00

So I should believe what the anonymous guy says, or he will get angry.

Its a pity jones that you refuse to hear the other...

2008-07-14T19:56:00.000-05:00

Its a pity jones that you refuse to hear the other side of the story.Most Americans think that Hawaii is just another state and dont know its history for schools and institutions have been made to make America look great an innocent. UH tells the other side of the story, it may be as biased as how US institutions tell the story, but at least you will be better informed and capable of finding the truth. But its sad that because your ignorant and incapable of making responsible and informed decisions, that you are forced to pass a great opportunity, and earn a free education here at UH.
Bottom line is this blog is ridiculous; you seem to try and legitimize Hawaii's annexation, while undermining Liliuokalani's reputation. Just because some people chose to make a differentiation between Liliuokalani and Gandhi or King at East West, that does not give you grounds to attack the Hawaii Sovereignty Movement or anyone who adores Liliuokalani for that matter. Your ideas are as biased as those presenters from the East West, and I will attack you for that. But again, its a great thing that I am an informed individual and am not mislead by your attempt to belittle Liliuokalani. And why do you try to take the blame off of the US for Hawaii's annexation? What ship did the military force for the annexation come off of? What is not the "USS" Boston? Dont fool yourself and think that you can make ridiculous comments and get away with them, its ignorant people like you that spark anger. Be realistic in what you say, and you should really come to UH and hear the other side, at least you will be more credible and accurate. Unless, of course, you are shallow minded and incapable of making decisions for yourself and only believe what you are told, rather than making the difference and learning the other side before opening your mouth.

The above racist diatribe was brought to you by th...

2008-07-14T18:27:00.000-05:00

The above racist diatribe was brought to you by the University of Hawaii. Teaching the illiterate products of the Hawaii State public schools well:

Domain Name hawaii.edu ? (Educational)
IP Address 128.171.57.# (University of Hawaii)
ISP University of Hawaii
Location Continent : North America
Country : United States (Facts)
State : Hawaii
City : Honolulu
Lat/Long : 21.3139, -157.8245 (Map)

Language English (U.S.)[Heh]

One of the reasons I wouldn't go there for free for my Ph.D., in American History, Brown Dude. Pity you are incapable of thinking as an individual, instead of just another tribal cipher parroting the drivel you've "learned" from the likes of Haunani Trask. No doubt the Brown Cipher feals a failure and is filled with animosity. His "teachers" have provided him with a racial enemy. It spares him the trouble of living an examined life.

"Germany for the Volk," that worked out well. It just goes to show that the "sovereignty" bunch are just ethnic cleaners at heart.

Hawaiians like everybody else have the natural rig...

2008-07-14T17:53:00.000-05:00

Hawaiians like everybody else have the natural right just as Germans in Germany, British in Britian and so one to be supreme in their lands.
And Liliuokalani unlike the writer was not dumb enought to foresee that the annexation was in hte jurisdiction of the US. Why else did Clinton apologize to the Hawaiian Kingdom and why is it that Hawaii is not currently an independent country ran by the institutions that Dole setted up? As for the military power that supported the annexation by Dole, who funded them? Where they not under the payroll and funding of the US Government? Follow the money stupid, that is where the liability is!!
And so dont try to legitamize the annexation. All you haoles should get out of the Pacific and go back to Europe. Your greed and attempt to control the world disgusts me, and has left scars on these islands that I loathe. Apologize and go back to where you all came from, the Pacific would do quite better, for we all know from the everyday life that haoles are the worst of racists for they think they are better, at least brown people have a reason and not just a mindset that they are better. And if you dont understand why brown people hate haoles, pickup a book and go through history!!

Thanks for admitting anonymous that the "Hawaii So...

2008-04-20T09:40:00.000-05:00

Thanks for admitting anonymous that the "Hawaii Sovereignty" agenda is based on racial nationalism, a thoroughly evil doctrine.

The information on this site is as biased as it cl...

2008-04-19T23:23:00.000-05:00

The information on this site is as biased as it claims that the Hawai'i sovereignists are. The pertinent facts are available in books which are easily available:

"The Betrayal of Queen Lilioukalani"

"To Steal a Kingdom"

"The Case for Hawai'i Sovereignty"

According to official documents and custom, only those with some aboriginal descent qualified as "Hawai'ian" and those were EXACTLY the persons disenfranchised by the illegal actions of Dole et al both before and after the events of 1893.

According to documents in the founding of the United Nations, the indigenous people of Hawaii were to be allowed to choose what form of government they wanted. The only choice given was statehood or to remain an American territory- and EVERYBODY on the islands at the time was allowed to vote, effectively diempowering (by diluting the effect of their votes)the ONE group who was specifically supposed to make the decision, the ethnic Hawai'ians!! This does not in ANY way meet the requirement made at the founding of the UN.

This site ignores or dismisses without discussion all of these factors.

Very well done and thought provoking. I hope this...

2007-02-01T07:50:00.000-06:00

Very well done and thought provoking. I hope this is read everytime the Queen's name or Hawaii illegal overthrow is typed in a search engine. However, I fear the facts do not matter to the activists attempting to rewrite history. These facts get in the way of a great story...

I'm cosmopolitian and glad to be free. However, so...

2007-02-01T04:11:00.000-06:00

I'm cosmopolitian and glad to be free. However, some of my ancesters was not. I thank those who care enough to proclaim my freedom so I am able to write this..
There is nothing so wrong with Hawaii wanting to be recognize as its own state.
Iam proud to be an american. However, you know as well as I do Our President's decision isn't in our best interest. We the people need to be more aware of what's more important to benifit us.
the question I ask you is Hawaii being its own State more important than we the U.S. is going to gain from the war in the Arab countries?
Let hawaii be and lets learn the real facts about this here. I'm not feeling this war is worth the lives of our children, do you?

I think everyone needs to be more careful in who t...

2007-01-18T13:18:00.000-06:00

I think everyone needs to be more careful in who they choose as their heroes.

If they use those heroes to further a political agenda, then what they were really about is important to know.

Everyone needs folk heroes...let them have one. Ba...

2007-01-18T00:30:00.000-06:00

Everyone needs folk heroes...let them have one. Bad things were done in the past; we can't change that, but there's no need for ridicule either...